[22:00:29] it's time, I guess. [22:01:03] Ladies and gentlemen, it is time for the last (for now) meeting regarding the future of the knockout tournament. [22:01:15] drum roll................ [22:01:21] * mahlemiut applauds [22:01:42] There are a number of topics that need to be discussed, and it is greatly appreciated that you have come here to express your opinions on these. [22:02:14] If you remember gb9's last big meeting where one person can have the focus, then we can do that type of "forum" [22:02:36] The first topic of discussion is timing. [22:02:55] The next KOA should have pacman, mspacman, pacman plus, pacmania, some game pacman brushed shoulders with, and every pac clone [22:02:56] How long does everyone think there should be between KoA1 and KoA2? [22:03:07] The End. [22:03:28] One month? Two months? Or mabye KoA2 should start immediately after KoA1? [22:03:39] couple of days [22:03:44] 2 months, I guess [22:04:00] scrap that, make it one month [22:04:06] Those are not set times, those were just some suggestions. If there is something that would help you more, feel free to add on to it. [22:04:52] It depends on when Deca2001 starts and the olympiad and the koa ends I think. [22:05:23] ok, this will seem awkward, but let's temporarily dismiss that topic. [22:05:37] At the rate cparsley works, koa1 will go on for another year [22:05:38] actually, cancel that. [22:05:40] ? [22:06:06] anything ya say boss:) [22:06:17] As a side note to this vote, also, how long should the entire tournament be? [22:06:33] How many round are there? [22:06:47] we'll discuss that later. [22:07:04] There's already a schedule made for topics to discuss. [22:07:23] I think the koa2 should last NrRounds*1 week [22:07:38] that was going to be another add on to the vote. How long should each round be? [22:07:55] 1 week [22:07:56] about 2 to 3 months I think.. not more anyway [22:08:02] yeah, that sounds good to me, 1 week per round [22:08:11] for the whole KOA2 Imean.. [22:08:16] So, overall: How long should it be between Knockout Tournaments, how long should KoA2 be, and how long should each round be? [22:08:44] does any one else have an opinion besides these three gentlemn? [22:08:49] gentlemen? Argh. [22:09:46] so the votes so far: [22:09:50] about 10 days a round [22:10:03] I think I want a pizza [22:10:13] heh. [22:10:21] Between KoA1 and KoA2: 1 vote for a couple of days, and one vote for one month. [22:10:22] Perhaps KOA could be held in the 2 time between the Tnn tournaments ?! [22:10:46] How long for KoA2: 2-3 months is the unanimous majority. [22:10:47] I'm planning on that, actually. [22:10:54] I don't want tournaments to coincide. [22:10:57] right. [22:11:14] and for each round, those who voted said that they were for each round being a week. [22:11:24] did I miss anything? [22:11:48] 7-10 days....... [22:11:50] Your meetings were first, JD. I'll adapt to you. [22:12:00] If the KOA is about 10 days a round (with 1-3 days betwean the rounds) the whole competition will be over in 2 months. [22:12:02] thanks. [22:12:07] TO allow for someone being on leave for say a week to not miss..... [22:12:24] .... an entire round.... [22:12:26] 7-10 days. Understood. [22:12:34] hmmm [22:12:40] Or more importantly if they get sent away by work for a week then they would miss a round...... [22:12:52] I'm pretty sure the majority doesn't want several tournaments going on at once. [22:13:03] agreed, BenJos. That would be hectic. [22:13:05] I would like it to be 5 days per round, recover over the weekend, then next round, and so on... [22:13:08] Unless you intend to allow each person 1 bye for the dureation of the tournament. [22:13:19] but Koa is only one game to concentrate on [22:13:20] duration even [22:13:33] well, you can put that up for a vote. Do we allow people to have byes? [22:13:38] 1 new game each nn days [22:13:39] one game at a time I mean [22:14:52] Once more: Do we allow people to have byes? [22:15:00] Why? [22:15:01] I might need my bye for a game which doesn't play back the machine I use [22:15:13] If games are chosen at random, why should people get byes? [22:15:30] LordGaz, there won't be playback problems. [22:15:31] I guess I was given a sort of bye in KoA1 when my arabian recording didn't play back [22:15:37] ok [22:15:41] we have had a list of about 40 games, and we made sure that all of them play back. [22:16:10] it has been reduced incredibly, but thanks to the work of Lagavulin and myself, we checked all the games. [22:16:18] I´m not sure I´m understand the word "byes" right now..please explain JD. [22:16:20] Or, stated differently, someone who might not have survived the first round could go on to win the tournament because of a bye. Does that entitle him/her to the title "KoA"? [22:16:51] I'm not sure how to put it correctly... [22:17:01] And could you use your bye in the final head to head? [22:17:06] you mean lik a WO? [22:17:08] like [22:17:09] to win [22:17:12] I believe that in this context, a "bye" is staying in the tournament even though your score was not good enough. [22:17:12] OK... how would byes be determined? [22:17:41] I don't know, since mamester just brought it up. [22:17:58] and how can you do that JD? if your score is not good enough? [22:18:13] I don't know. I think I misunderstood what a "bye" is myself. [22:18:30] If your score is not good enough then you are gone or? [22:18:31] this was not a topic that was scheduled, but it's good that it was at least brought up. [22:18:33] translation: double-elimination [22:18:38] thank you, gb9 :) [22:18:54] ahhh ok I understand now! [22:18:54] I was more referring to allowing a person to state that they had work (or whatever) committments that meant they were unable to participate for a given week - not for someone to be able to use it when their score was insufficient to progress. [22:18:56] which we'll get to very shortly. [22:19:03] ah. [22:19:46] I'd hate to be eliminated (if I chose to participate) just because my work sent me away out of town for a week. [22:20:05] so what is everyone's opinion on that kind of take? [22:20:37] But does that mean theoretically you could use your bye in the final? [22:20:50] Perhaps a qualified bye, where when they get back they have 2 days to produce the goods on the game to show they weren't just opting out because they suck at the game in question? [22:21:02] not in those tournaments I have participated in.. [22:21:16] another question, then, BeeJay. How many qualified byes? [22:21:31] I would try to save my bye until as late in the tourney as possible [22:21:58] 1 only. [22:22:11] I have to go....... [22:22:18] Take a "bye" whenever you want? [22:22:22] when we play pool in tournaments the "byes" areonly legal until the quarter finals.. [22:22:34] Just drop my idea if the rest of you think it's a bad idea. [22:22:36] bye [22:22:40] *** mamester has quit IRC (BeeJay has left the building) [22:23:20] so, who all definitely votes for byes? [22:23:40] All in favor say "yes", "Aye", or something similar. [22:23:45] for good reason only, not to just pass a game you don't like [22:23:45] sure [22:23:55] in my opinion I want a fast elemination without byes. [22:24:30] All who oppose do the opposite, and say "No", "Nay", or something similar. [22:24:42] no [22:24:48] 2 yes, 1 no. [22:25:15] can I change to no? [22:25:18] sure [22:25:21] 1 yes, 2 no [22:25:55] Any others? [22:26:00] Nee. [22:26:13] 1 yes, 3 no. [22:26:25] and don't baffle me with Monty Python right now :) [22:27:03] alright, the "No"s have it. [22:27:14] Thou shalt count to 3. [22:27:15] ah hell, if everyone is going to say no, then I will to... :) [22:27:21] 0 yes, 4 no :) [22:27:24] too [22:27:35] so no byes. [22:27:39] alright then. [22:27:42] coward!!*lol* [22:27:53] Next topic: Preliminary Round [22:27:53] Thou shalt not count to 4. [22:27:57] 5 is right out. [22:28:09] Shall we use a preliminary round? [22:28:09] Thou shalt not count two 2 unless thou proceedest to 3. [22:28:28] What do you mean? [22:28:34] actually, that needs to be worded differently. [22:28:41] It would help to explain a preliminary round... [22:28:44] There are three options that myself, Lagavulin, and Brian came up with. [22:28:51] yes one preliminary round sounds fair [22:29:06] Option One: We use the same setup from KoA1, where we divide up the players randomly. [22:29:29] Option Two: We use a preliminary round to either seed the players, or reduce them in a fashion that might be voted on. [22:30:09] Option Three: We start with the group of players, and we cut the number of players in half every round until, say, 8 players is left; then there are quarter finals, semi finals, and finals. [22:30:12] Hmm... seeding might be interesting... [22:30:32] But what would it be based on? [22:30:34] There is another option that I forgot [22:30:36] Like the World Cup? [22:30:37] one second, BenJos [22:30:47] I vote for nr2 [22:30:47] Option Four: One on One play. [22:30:56] *** Knighted has quit IRC (Connection closed) [22:31:12] and for seeding, well, I'm looking up the email on that one. I didn't expect a question on that, for some odd reason. [22:31:44] So, there are the options. I'd like your opinions on all of these, then I'll call a vote. [22:31:54] It should be based on how you roceed in the preliminary round I think [22:32:03] or if you even have another option to add, feel free to add one. [22:32:05] proceed [22:33:25] Any thoughts? [22:33:25] Does otion 3 mean it will all be one on one after the group phase? [22:33:40] Plenty of thoughts. But not any relevant ones. [22:34:00] I like option 3, but have a preliminary round there to get a top 8 or 16. [22:34:01] Yes, I believe so, Gaz. [22:34:41] and I'm still looking up seeding. [22:34:43] now sleeping - send log. bye [22:34:45] *** Gameboy9 has quit IRC [22:34:54] will do. [22:34:55] I stick with option 2. Withseedings based on how you proceed in the preliminary round. [22:34:55] oops. [22:35:07] Now sleeping. Send long. Leave out Ben Jos's requests for translations this time. [22:35:29] Log, even. [22:35:59] * QRS throws a log at Ben Jos to make him sleep :) [22:36:24] so that's 1 vote for Option 2, and 2 votes for Option 3, correct? [22:36:37] Log? [22:36:39] Hmm... [22:36:43] I cut down trees, I wear high heels, suspenders, and a bra. I wish I'd been a girlie, just like my dear papa. [22:36:48] I go for option 2 [22:36:53] hehe [22:37:05] what about Ben Jos? [22:37:07] oh, ok. 2 votes for Option 2, and one for Option 3. [22:37:33] Sorry... hang on.. [22:37:34] for seedings, wouldn't it be fairer to base it on MARP ranking, rather than one game? [22:37:53] Hmm... [22:38:07] No, the MARP ranking says nothing about how good you are as a player [22:38:26] I still like the seeding idea, and maybe preliminary rounds connected to it, but how to decide that would be a different matter. [22:38:50] But if you want the most "fair" outcome, random would be the way to go. [22:39:08] I think there should be a private vote where we all vote who we think the top say 3 players are [22:39:23] I like the seeding in the preliminary round idea:) [22:39:24] And seed that way [22:39:40] And if the game for the preliminary round is Pnickies, that's fair? [22:39:43] ok, a side note: Should there be a minimum score? [22:39:59] hmm that´s a good idea! [22:40:05] Barry : hmm you have a point there.. [22:40:11] It might not, Barry, but given enough rounds, those advantages tend to cancel out. [22:40:40] oh, I completely forgot an option. [22:40:45] Argh. [22:41:05] do you have one? [22:41:05] :) [22:41:20] Option Five: No matter how many players in the first round, we cut it so that there are a number of players that is a power of 2 [22:42:09] I think Lordgaz´s idea about the private voting is a good idea [22:42:15] and then play quarters, semis, and final? [22:42:16] And then a straight 1 on 1 Ko you mean? [22:42:19] like if there were 51 people, and then we reduce it to 32 players. [22:42:30] correct, Barry. [22:42:47] correct, Gaz [22:42:57] Or make it 64 and give some byes. [22:42:58] *** mamester has joined #marp [22:43:20] What about a 6 round Swiss tourney? [22:43:22] *** phuquenut sets mode: +o mamester [22:43:34] a 6 round Swiss tourney? [22:43:36] *** mamester changes topic to 'KoA2 meeting on now.' [22:43:58] A bit like how chess tourneys are run [22:44:03] *** SportDude has joined #marp [22:44:08] All matches are head to head [22:44:16] so you want ALL matches head to head? [22:44:28] And the people with similar scores are paired each round [22:44:34] Just an idea [22:44:45] *** QRS sets mode: +o SportDude [22:44:45] well, we can make that option six then. [22:44:58] For those who have just gotten in, we're deciding the set up of the tournament. [22:45:10] Option One: We use the same setup from KoA1, where we divide up the players randomly. [22:45:15] Option Two: We use a preliminary round to either seed the players, or reduce them in a fashion that might be voted on. [22:45:20] Option Three: We start with the group of players, and we cut the number of players in half every round until, say, 8 players is left; then there are quarter finals, semi finals, and finals. [22:45:28] woe be tide he who faces BBH at any point... [22:45:33] Option Four: One on One play. [22:45:43] Option Five: No matter how many players in the first round, we cut it so that there are a number of players that is a power of 2 [22:45:50] Nope Barry...anyone who has to play Hisa-Chan should be worried... [22:45:53] Unless it's BBH. =) [22:46:13] MARP Score Upload Notice : SportsDude scored 4018100 on soldamj-norm (Position 2) [22:46:19] Hisa can´t afford to participate I think... [22:46:19] except I doubt Hisa would even enter in the first place. [22:46:24] Hisa won't play unless it's an all clear game [22:46:31] Unless the games are in his favor. =) [22:47:03] well it seem like he must have the boards before he plays the game.. [22:47:04] A recent Option Six: People with similar scores are placed together in one on one rounds. [22:47:15] So shall we put this to an official vote? [22:47:28] This is for a new KoA, right? [22:47:29] I vote for option 2 [22:47:32] correct, SD [22:47:40] option 5 [22:47:49] wb Beejay:) [22:47:53] Hmm... [22:48:58] Hisa-Chan won't compete on games on which he's reasonably sure he can be #1. [22:49:06] Those games and Soldam. +P [22:49:32] That should've been a =P, but who's really paying attention? (I mean, other than seymour and the random quoter) [22:49:40] Option 2 [22:49:58] two votes for Option 2, one vote for Option 5 [22:51:18] * SportDude wonders if he should vote...I feel discomfort in playing certain games...I mean, I can be versatile...but some games are just not viable options... [22:51:20] I would vote 2 except I have a question: How can you seed players when the games are going to presumably be significantly different each round? [22:51:22] Are these the final results? any additions? [22:51:46] BeeJay's right...(you are BeeJay, correct...=) [22:51:54] *** mamester is now known as BeeJay [22:52:10] Right...you can revert yourself now, unless you want BeeJay to get random quotes. =P [22:52:30] But as I was saying, other than BBH and Quazar if he enters, seeding is not exactly going to be accurate... [22:52:31] then follow Lord gaz´s option with privat votes of the seeding [22:52:34] I'm still looking for the email that explains the idea for this seeding. [22:53:14] Right. I like the idea of seeding, but I can't come up with a way I think is fair of doing it. [22:53:31] JD:Lagavulin had no explanation about the seeding earlier today [22:53:35] oh. [22:54:01] you could possible base the seedings on the previous KoA results... [22:54:02] I like the idea of keeping everyone in 1 group and dropping n players each time where n is calculated from the total number of entrants to ensure we get down to the 8 finalists after the same number of weeks each time to keep the tournaments always the same length. [22:54:08] possibly [22:54:10] But not everyone was in the previous KoA... [22:54:24] Yours truly, for one...I had no idea what Aurail was...=) [22:54:39] not me either:) [22:54:48] so what does everyone think of BeeJay's idea? [22:55:06] Wasn't that what we...um...what they did last time? [22:55:19] let´s put up a vote for the seeding [22:55:26] We had 5 groups last time [22:55:34] ok, how does everyone want to seed? [22:55:41] There is A. Based on MARP standing. [22:55:47] But... [22:55:47] B. Private Vote [22:55:57] C. Based on KoA1 [22:55:57] (I should've waited to debate about A. =) [22:56:13] D. Based on the first game played. [22:56:21] I go for option B [22:56:31] D is NOT a viable option, since not everyone has played the first game played... [22:56:32] B [22:56:39] D. :-) [22:56:57] ehhh [22:56:58] Since I wasn't in KoA1, I can't do C. A is too unpredictable after a couple. I go for B...but I have a question... [22:57:00] B [22:57:14] Is there a rule on such voting when it comes to voting for yourself? [22:57:23] Random all the way is the way to go, IMO. [22:57:29] There's too many games to seed the players [22:57:30] You can't vote for yourself [22:57:39] That simplifies things. +P [22:57:43] oh yes. Thank you, BenJos, for reminding me. [22:57:50] E. Randomly instead of seeding. [22:57:57] Random seeding? [22:58:00] I vote for E [22:58:03] Cubex: We can do what the ATP Tour does...seed only the first couple players, and then it's a random draw... [22:58:04] Random placement. [22:58:14] well, that is like the D option anyway:) [22:59:04] Of course, if everyone is in one group then seeding wouldn't be required and you couldn't "scrape" through as the best of the worst in a group on a given game. [22:59:32] if we all vote for the seeding(private) we will finaly (maybe:) come up with the best overall player at MARP Ithink [22:59:56] But also on the converse you could also have more people to be worse than you in a given game as well with 1 group. [23:00:17] then the seeding will not be based on the LB, but on the publics opinion [23:00:54] so far, the majority is for B. [23:01:25] and my grammar has flown out the window :) [23:01:48] Then get your grandad to go and fetch her back. [23:01:57] heh. yourgrammar will always be better than mine anyway JD:) [23:02:16] QRS: Unless you're typing/speaking in Swedish..... [23:02:33] It doesn´t make any dif:) [23:02:55] So how will the voting work: We all privately put the players in rank order with the bottom scoring 0 and the top scoring N? [23:03:03] so it's B? [23:03:04] Ok, change my vote from Random to B if that will get things moving. [23:04:04] And the player who gets the highest score will be seeded 1 etc... [23:04:06] what does everyone think of Gaz' latest idea? [23:05:21] sounds good to me. [23:05:24] Do you really want each person to have to try to gague their thought on 60 different people - assuming we get that many in the future? [23:05:42] alright, what about, say, Top 5? or 3? [23:05:58] yes [23:06:05] well 10-20 is enough I think [23:06:13] MARP Score Upload Notice : Zip scored 61500 on polepos1 (Position 1) [23:06:19] wow [23:06:38] Then you may end up with a whole swag of people that you would just randomise amongst the groups. [23:06:52] Wow indeed - what's he using for controls ?! [23:07:04] ... or she...... [23:07:12] *** SportDude has quit IRC (irc.exodus.net irc.best.net) [23:07:13] *** cubex has quit IRC (irc.exodus.net irc.best.net) [23:07:14] *** mahlemiut has quit IRC (irc.exodus.net irc.best.net) [23:07:14] *** BenJos has quit IRC (irc.exodus.net irc.best.net) [23:07:18] the whole PP Cabinet probably:) [23:07:25] not now!! [23:07:29] :) [23:07:33] oh great! [23:07:45] Looks like exodus just took a hit...... [23:07:57] yup [23:08:08] *** SportDude has joined #marp [23:08:08] *** cubex has joined #marp [23:08:08] *** mahlemiut has joined #marp [23:08:08] *** BenJos has joined #marp [23:08:08] *** ircd.west.gblx.net sets mode: +oooo SportDude cubex mahlemiut BenJos [23:08:17] well "The are coming back... THEY WILL RETURN" [23:08:20] lol [23:08:46] but anyway, it's still up to how the private votes are done. [23:09:02] it takes a long time to master a new game... if it's totally different [23:09:38] Well you only need a few 'seeded' players so voting for the top 3 or 5 should do it [23:09:44] or "exactly different" to quote Hisa Chan:) [23:10:18] I think a seeding for th 10 best players. [23:10:20] shall we move on yet, or are there still thoughts to be discussed? [23:10:21] Actually, I think the seeding will be a waste of time unless you intend to have a KOA-shooters, KOA-pacs, KOA-Fighters type tournaments. [23:10:39] top 8 should be seeded, no more [23:10:43] do you mean something like "Only shooters in KoA"? [23:10:53] I think seeding is a nice idea, but I can't think of any fair way of implementing it. [23:10:53] Yes...... [23:10:55] heheh [23:10:56] hmm 9 then Barry *joking* [23:11:12] can I be in the KOA-Columns and Jrpacman tournament? LOL [23:11:12] But people with hotrods will have an advantage [23:11:30] People with hotrods definitely have an advantage........ [23:11:36] they are not allowed to participate:) [23:11:39] lol [23:11:40] Will they, Gary? I own a HotRod. Guess what? I play MOST of my games with keyboard. [23:11:53] BenJos - then send your hotrod to me.......... [23:12:04] or to me... [23:12:05] I'll make sure it gets a good thrashing for you..... [23:12:05] no, to me! ;) [23:12:15] memememe [23:12:20] Shortest KOA: KOA-Galaga, 1st round, YOU vs. Krogman... [23:12:23] ANY MORE THOUGHTS?? [23:12:27] I just find it hard to find an extra finger to do the rapid firing in some shootems [23:12:35] :) [23:12:47] no more thought for me JD! [23:12:59] thoughts. [23:13:38] hmmmm, zero hits, looks like Ashuime left MARP [23:13:47] ok, next topic, if everyone wants to move on [23:13:49] hmm mail från Ron.. [23:13:54] The buttons on the HotRod are too far apart. [23:14:04] Especially for 3 or more button games. [23:14:08] MDenham is Ashuime, Mark [23:14:20] oh [23:14:25] mark, he's now known as Matt Denham [23:14:42] BenJos: Wouldn't worry me except possibly on Gunsmoke...... all the other games I play are 1 or occasionally 2 button games. [23:15:09] Hmmm, how is the Hotrod for pac games? [23:15:14] is it worth the money? [23:15:26] Maybe if you convert it to 4-way. [23:15:34] ok, next topic: What version of MAME to use [23:15:40] hmm I got 2 more votes for deca2001:) [23:15:48] But mainly I want the Joystick for moving instead of using keys.......... and of course 2 joysticks so I can get back into Robotron again. [23:15:51] Do we stick with the m35tg3, or do we go to a final version of MAME? [23:16:02] yeah, Robotron would be fun [23:16:04] a TG version. [23:16:12] TG Version naturally. [23:16:34] are your beta9version ready yet Mark? [23:16:49] The reason this is brought up is since there were complaints about how the final version is better, and that TG is illegal. [23:16:57] well it's finished... but same ol' encryption scheme [23:17:41] and will we see it before beta 11 comes out? :) [23:17:44] OK. I'm talking in several windows... so forgive me if it has been answered before... when is KoA2 supposed to start? [23:17:57] I vote for Mark´s latest mame37b9tg then.. If he allows us to use it:) [23:18:03] why would tg be illegal? [23:18:08] Can't you simulate a 4-way joystick by defining the keys cleverly, eg, the key for RIGHT = RIGHT AND NOT UP AND NOT DOWN [23:18:12] That's a silly argument... [23:18:22] because of the source code issue [23:18:30] Ask Stig about it:) [23:18:34] no thank you [23:18:41] KoA2 is supposed to start I believe the vote was a month after KoA1 ends. [23:18:43] * SportDude is back...and a little depressed... [23:18:54] the changed source isnt released? then i'd have to agree with it being illegal. [23:18:58] sd, you soldam score is now confirmed... [23:19:00] I had 730k in Soldam at the midway point, and then I asphyxiated. =( [23:19:05] Fuck Stig. And you can quote me on that. [23:19:12] (Rodland version, if you couldn't figure out) [23:19:14] anyway, back to idling. [23:19:26] Ben Jos:lol [23:19:28] Dan Boris understood why TG mame was written... and I think most players preferred it, even Chris Moore for tournaments [23:19:36] BenJos, that'll be on the random quotes page in no time :) [23:19:45] ok, so everyone is in agreement on TG version. [23:19:54] Should I repeat it a few times to make sure, Barry? :-) [23:20:05] Now, this next issue is one that has been fought over a few times in the private discussions. [23:20:13] MARP Score Upload Notice : Pam scored 6180 on eto (Position 6) [23:20:14] MARP Score Upload Notice : Pam scored 1080 on magspot2 (Position 9) [23:20:15] ? [23:20:16] Ben Jos: no flooding please:) [23:20:17] I'll try to put this the best way that I can. [23:20:20] well, it's ain't me saying those two words ;) [23:20:52] "If the score plays back, and it's on the right version of MAME, then the score is definite." [23:21:09] "If the score doesn't play back, and it's the wrong version of MAME, then the player is out" [23:21:12] MARP Score Upload Notice : Pam scored 15310 on polepos (Position 11) [23:21:14] Anyways, the "Illegal" TG version ending up being used for several tournaments, correct? [23:21:28] "If the score plays back, but is the wrong version of MAME, then..." [23:21:36] ummm [23:21:48]