2 nd Knockout Tournament
2nd public meeting. Friday january 12, 2001 at 13.00 GMT
Hosted by Lagavulin
********************************************************
<Lagavulin> OK, do you want to begin ? We're not many, we'll make that fast ...
<_Frankie_> I'm ready
<Lagavulin> So the aim of this meeting is essentially to discuss about rules and organisation of the K2 tournament.
<Lagavulin> We want to hear about your opinions on that
<Lagavulin> Let's begin by time-organisation
<Lagavulin> What about length between KoA1 and KoA2 ? Should we immediately begin just after end of k1 ?
<_Frankie_> It depends if you're ready, and when KoA1 is finished
<TJT> When is next ordinary marp tournament?
<Lagavulin> We are ready to begin. We just wait for K1' end.
<_Frankie_> picked the games and everything?
<Lagavulin> And the T6 is not scheduled yet.
<TJT> K1 has been going on for ages...
<Lagavulin> Yes, games picked. Web page almost ready.
<TJT> ...much too long
<_Frankie_> Then I say start as soon as KoA1 is finished
<Lagavulin> And still not finished ! Round 7 is not scheduled yet.
<TJT> T6 not scheduled?
<_Frankie_> Round 7 must be the final?
<Lagavulin> I hope so , but it's not certain
<Lagavulin> Maybe there will be a round 8 ...
<_Frankie_> Well with 5 players left it should be.
<Lagavulin> He maybe will an elimination of 3 to have a 2 player final 
<_Frankie_> Probably
<Lagavulin> And for T6, I dont think it's scheduled yet, Tommi
<TJT> T6 why not? 2+2months /is this because of elections thing? 
<Lagavulin> I guess so, and because Ben Jos wants to ask us about eventual changes
<TJT> ok
<Lagavulin> there's currently a thread about that
<Lagavulin> OK, so we start immediately when k1 is finished ?
<_Frankie_> yes
<TJT> Yeps
<Lagavulin> Now, organisation of rounds ? All in one group, eliminating half players ? Like Parsley's 6th round ?
<Lagavulin> Or small groups like k1 first rounds ?
<Lagavulin> Other way ?
<QRS> hmm small groups maybe but with more people eliminated so the tournament goes faster.
<_Frankie_> I go for small groups
<TJT> Hmmm, one group sounds fairest, but several groups is more exciting...hmmm
<Lagavulin> We had the idea to make one group, eliminating half of players each time
<Lagavulin> It allows us tomake a fast tournament
<Lagavulin> fast : about 2 or 3 months :)
<_Frankie_> Yes, but if a shooting game is picked all players who don't master these games are out
<TJT> couple of first rounds several groups, half are eliminated(out of 6). Rest of the rounds in one Group, good or bad?
<QRS> hmmm yes :)
<QRS> good
<Lagavulin> Interesting idea ...
<_Frankie_> good
<Lagavulin> OK, and matchs with 2 players only ?
<QRS> I like the feeling more.. with smaller groups I think.
<Lagavulin> For example, 1/4 finals, 1/2 finals and finals
<_Frankie_> I think it should end with those finals, yes
<_Frankie_> 2,4 and 8
<_Frankie_> do you have any feeling about how many will sign up?
<TJT> I think final of 4 players is not out of the question
<Lagavulin> No idea, we will try to advertise the tournament on forums and emulation sites. 
<Lagavulin> Maybe 50 ? 
<TJT> frankie: You know there's that deca2001 too, so don't know
<TJT> hehehe
<_Frankie_> I know
<Lagavulin> OK, what about a preliminary round, all in one group, just to qualify ?
<TJT> Ok, sounds good
<QRS> hmm also an interesting idea
<Lagavulin> With a prelim round, we have 3 options, I guess : 
<Lagavulin> 1 ) eliminate only scores 0
<Lagavulin> 2 ) eliminate under a certain score to determine
<Lagavulin> 3 ) eliminate a predetermined certain number of players to reach an easy number of players for round 1 ( for ex 32 )
<Lagavulin> Your opinion on this ?
<TJT> 3 is best
<_Frankie_> if 63 players sign up, 31 would be dropped in the first round?
<_Frankie_> I say 1 to get rid of the non serious players
<Lagavulin> He he ... Maybe not in that case, we have to see according to the sign ups 
<QRS> no we have to get another guy to get 64 instead:) *joking*
<TJT> Non serious players will drop anyway at first round...
<_Frankie_> they didn't in KoA1
<TJT> As a matter of fact it doesn't matter if you call it round1 or preliminary, if players are dropped anyway
<Lagavulin> that's why a prelim round in one group is better
<_Frankie_> well allright, I say option 3
<Lagavulin> 0 scores dont make unequal groups
<Lagavulin> OK. Anything else on these rounds organisation ?
<TJT> lagavulin, you are absolutely right...no luck of the draw there!
<QRS> hmm option 3 sounds fair to me.. but honestly I have problems to decide..
<Lagavulin> The problem in option 3 is that players are immediately eliminated, even if some are motivated
<QRS> hmm right
<_Frankie_> to many players could be dropped just because they hate or can't master that game
<QRS> well then you have to put alot of effor not beeing one of those eliminated then! (Hisa quote) 
<_Frankie_> I'm no Hisa :-)
<QRS> not me either:) 
<Lagavulin> Right, it depends too much of the game.
<Lagavulin> And a minimum score to qualify ?
<_Frankie_> save that for the olympics
<Lagavulin> OK. What about the organisation of ONE round ? Length ?
<Lagavulin> 3 days ? One week ? two weeks ?
<_Frankie_> depends on the game once again
<QRS> well, Parsleyīs way of doing KOA1 was good but it did take too long.. I like the idea with small groups but It has to go faster and the uploads needs to be automatic
<Lagavulin> the uploads will be automatic, this time.
<_Frankie_> I don't mind playing 2 weeks on one game if the next round start right away. There are games that take longer
<_Frankie_> one or two weeks depending on the game type
<QRS> Lagavulin:great! thatīs one thing that makes it alot easier:)
<_Frankie_> 3 days is not enough
<Lagavulin> we thought to a regular organisation : all rounds are the same
<Lagavulin> from a thursday to a sunday, for example ( 10 days )
<Lagavulin> Sounds good for you ?
<_Frankie_> That would be fine, but less than a week is not enough
<Lagavulin> No, it's out of question , you're right.
<QRS> it doesnīt matter to me if we play for 3 days or 10 days as long as the tournament goes fast betwean the matches.. and is updated all the time etc.
<_Frankie_> with only 3 days we risk that some players have to drop out because they can't find the time, that's not fair
<Lagavulin> No more than 3 days between each round, I think.
<_Frankie_> yep
<Lagavulin> OK. What about version of MAME to use ? m35tg3 sounds good ?
<TJT> I think one week would be fine
<_Frankie_> m35tg3 sound fine
<_Frankie_> may I ask who makes those tg versions of MAME?
<TJT> tg3
<QRS> sounds good to me, but when does KOA2 start?
<Lagavulin> just after KOA1 ...
<QRS> Mark (Cubex)
<TJT> FRankie, Mark Longridge does, cubeman.snipercade.com
<_Frankie_> why isn't there a m36tg?
<QRS> I talked with him about deca2001 some days ago and he is about to release another tg mame soon. Based on m37b9
<_Frankie_> wow.
<_Frankie_> Let's use that one for KoA3
<TJT> QRS, when before deca2001?
<Lagavulin> Yes, that will make a good choice of games !
<QRS> Frankie: he has not compiled a newer on than 35 yet, but he is on his way:)
<_Frankie_> Great.
<QRS> I think he has it ready, but he needs a little "push" from us to get it out in time:)!
<_Frankie_> Just an idea. How about letting the player with the highest score in a round skip a round as a little bonus?
<TJT> No free rounds for Hisa!
<QRS> like giving hin an extra life youmean?
<_Frankie_> yes
<QRS> Well, Hisa will probably not participate.. he canīt afford that:)
<Lagavulin> Maybe we could give points to players just to determine seedings for the final round ( 1/4 finals ... )
<TJT> I hope he would, It would be nice to try beat him :)
<QRS> it sounds like a good idea, and will probably raise the standards on the recordings even more!
<_Frankie_> yes
<TJT> How would you seed me?
<QRS> Tommi: I agree:)
<TJT> :)
<TJT> Would you seed by leaderboard score or percentage or?
<Lagavulin> Anything else about organisation ?
<Lagavulin> Sorry, I didn't see your question.
<Lagavulin> No, only based on the K2's first rounds results
<TJT> Oh, I thinhk I misunderstood that seeding thing...
<Lagavulin> For example, with prelim round and places you get during the first rounds
<QRS> yes thatīs more fair.. the LB should have nothing to do with this.
<_Frankie_> I agree
<QRS> hmm why not make a big prelim first round with no people eliminated? Just to for the seedings in gropus etc?
<TJT> QRS: NO, time waste
<QRS> hmm ok
<Lagavulin> About playback problems : if a player uses a wrong version ,but his game playbacks well. Allowed? Eliminated ?
<QRS> about playback: If we use mame35tg3b then all recordings should be eliminated if they are recorded with another version.
<TJT> If it is TG version used, only that allowed
<_Frankie_> I say allow. It's a shame to drop out because you can record it
<TJT> But if Windows version is not ready?
<QRS> but those who chose the games must of course test all the games to se if they playback on m35tg3b BEFORE the KOA2 starts
<Lagavulin> That's done !
<Lagavulin> We checked all the games we picked
<QRS> great!
<_Frankie_> still IIRC some players had problems in KoA1
<Lagavulin> and of course they all work normally
<_Frankie_> Didn't Chris test the games?
<QRS> but I donīt think Chris tested all games before..
<TJT> Have you picked the games already, Lagavulin?
<_Frankie_> okay
<Lagavulin> Yes, we selected a bunch of games , covering all the categories
<_Frankie_> What games will we play then?            :-)
<Lagavulin> we begin by ... Hey , I stopped in time :)
* QRS think that Tommis real question is:Any track and field in KO2? *lol*
<TJT> hehehehehehehe!
* QRS is sure that JD will have Btime in KO2 just to make me puke:)
<_Frankie_> oh no, not Btime. How about Rally X?
<QRS> how many games/rounds ? 5, 10, 15?
<QRS> aprox?
<Lagavulin> it would be OK to do it in 3 months max
<Lagavulin> So with 15 days for each round ...
<QRS> ok
<_Frankie_> yes
<TJT> max, maybe faster...
<Lagavulin> one prelim, about 3-5 rounds and then the finals ... ??
<QRS> sounds fair to me!
<_Frankie_> yes
<Lagavulin> Next question : Do we keep looking to sponsors for money prizes ? Or you dont care ?
<_Frankie_> I don't care
<TJT> don't care
<QRS> well, prizes are always nice, but the main thing is that the tournament is great in my opinion
<Lagavulin> OK, that's clear :)
<Lagavulin> I have no more questions :) 
<TJT> Back to length: If half are eliminated each round 32 players would make 5 rounds,one round/10 days would be 50 days...
<Lagavulin> And the prelim round to qualify the 32players .
<Lagavulin> So it makes 60 days !
<TJT> Yeah!
<QRS> you have to count at least 1-3 days betwean the matches also right?
<QRS> for updates etc?
<TJT> I counted them: 7/3
<Lagavulin> It's not an obligation.
<QRS> ok
<Lagavulin> Because we have automatic uploads !
<QRS> well thatīs two months!
<Lagavulin> We can prepare next round in advance so that it begins immediately
<QRS> about the webpage: Is it public yet? anyway we an have  peak?:_)
<Lagavulin> not yet. In a few days. I wait for the end of these meetings to do a "synthesis" and write the final rules
<QRS> ok
<Lagavulin> next week, I guess
<_Frankie_> will it be updated every day?
<Lagavulin> No need to update it so often, because we will have a k2- entry
<Lagavulin> so rankings will be automatic
<_Frankie_> oh, I forgot, sorry.
<Lagavulin> Anything else ?
<TJT> Will we have a vote(again...)between different options after your synthesis, Lagavulin?
<Lagavulin> we didnt think to that 
<TJT> Or do you decide that threesome :) ?
<Lagavulin> But if there 's something really undecided, why not ?
<TJT> Vote is not necessary, if you find agreement
<Lagavulin> right :)
<QRS> hmm I have no more questions I think.
<Lagavulin> OK. so we end here ?
<_Frankie_> yep
<TJT> OK
<_Frankie_> and good luck running it.
<QRS> But I will think Iīll come up with some later on and grill JD with them:)
<Lagavulin> So, thank you everyone !
Session Close: Fri Jan 12 15:19:48 2001